| - Little Valley Flooding - |
INSUFFICIENT DRAINAGE WILL CAUSE LOSS OF PROPERTY ON 3150 SOUTH AND BELOW
These pictures were taken at least 20 minutes AFTER a 45 minute rain storm on 7-18-2015 at 5:15pm. The water was higher before, but people weren’t interested in taking pictures because they were too busy trying to save their homes. |
3150 SOUTH AND 2880 E
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3150 SOUTH
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3150 SOUTH |
2880 EAST |
THE PROBLEM:
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We currently have about a half-mile square area that drains onto one street (3150 south). The underground drainage appears to consist of a 24” pipe which is very quickly completely overwhelmed and only has a total of 10 small curb drains for a very large area. This last major rainstorm only lasted about 30-45 minutes and was entering homes and causing landscape damage. This was not a particularly long downpour and was certainly not a 100 year event. The issues on 3150 S and below were clearly caused by allowing developers to get away with installing a completely inadequate drainage systems. During subsequent lesser storms we witnessed water streaming right over these small curb drains. During this storm they weren’t even visible because they were submerged.
I've spent quite a bit of time trying to get some kind of commitment for action on this issue before the entire area is built out with more pathetic drainage but have been so far unsuccessful. I am told by the mayor that "It's too late" to do an adequate drainage system and that it would take more than 50 years to install adequate drainage throughout the city even though that is not what I'm asking for. I've been told by various city council members that they are looking into the situation but have no answers or solutions. Meanwhile the developers build away.. tying more 24" diameter pipes into more 24" pipes. I can't imagine there would be an impartial engineer in the world who would say this system is adequate. Where I come from (Moorpark, California), a town with about half the population and more absorbant soils there was a network of huge culverts and tunnels leading to a wash. Many of these were about 30' wide and 10-15 feet deep. Some of the smaller tunnels leading to these systems were about 8' in diameter. Las Vegas is larger than St George, but they have similar soil conditions and weather and they have an immense drainage system. St George's drainage system would appear to the untrained eye to be engineered by people who are either very friendly with large developers, lazy or incompetent. If they can prove otherwise, I have yet to be sent the proof even though I've asked for information repeatedly.
It is my opinion that they don't think this issue is important or urgent enough to take immediate action. As can be seen in the email thread with government officials, I think they're acting like it's an impossible problem and that it's too late even though there would seem to be some pretty obvious solutions to help mitigate this problem.
I'm not an engineer, but I think it would be both possible and intelligent to put a large diameter (at least 6ft) down 3000 E with many large curb drains to sufficiently allow water into it and route that pipe through the field south of 3150 S, under Little Valley Rd. and west out to the wash. This would help catch much of the runoff from the east which currently has to run over the streets when the drains are easily overwhelmed and down to settle in the low area which appears to be the development "Little Valley Ranchos". I have no doubt that putting in an adequate drainage system would be expensive and inconvenient, but if it had been done right to begin with it would have been less costly. Codes have to be updated to prevent developers from cheaply putting in riduculously pathetic drainage systems. As I am being verbally reassured by city officials that "they're on it" I drive by excavators every day putting in more tiny drain pipes all around. I don't know what the situation is here, but I've heard that sometimes a city will outgrow the competence of its engineers. Maybe when St George was small, these sorts of drainage systems were sufficient, but clearly they're not anymore. If current officials and engineers are unable or unwilling to do what is neccessary to protect the lives and property of the residents of St George I believe they should make way for those that are. |
This shows the aproximate size of the area which MUST drain to 3150 S and eventually toward Little Valley Road. and is expected to be handled by 24" underground pipe. |
LOCATIONS OF ONLY CURB DRAINS IN THE PATH TO 3150 S AND 2880 E |
INADEQUATE CURB DRAINS IN SIZE AND NUMBER |
INADEQUATE CURB DRAINS IN SIZE AND NUMBER |
INADEQUATE CURB DRAINS IN SIZE AND NUMBER |
INADEQUATE CURB DRAINS IN SIZE AND NUMBER
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INADEQUATE CURB DRAINS IN SIZE AND NUMBER |
INADEQUATE CURB DRAINS IN SIZE AND NUMBER |
INADEQUATE CURB DRAINS IN SIZE AND NUMBER |
ANOTHER VIEW OF AREA THAT MUST DRAIN TO 3150 S |
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AN EVEN BROADER VIEW - CLICK FOR LARGER |
These lots MUST flood. The river rushing down 3150 S hits them head on and created a waterfall into these basement lots. The developer has apparently prepped them to sell to unsuspecting buyers already. |
Email threads to local Mayor and Council members: |
Subject : Major flooding issue on 3150 South
Date : Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:27:13 -0700
My neighbors and I are very concerned about flooding on our street (3150 South) particularly. After looking over the area extensively my concern has only grown. I am not a civil engineer, but I would depend on one to help resolve this problem so that fairly minor rainstorms down cause major losses in the future. I’ve created a crude presentation of the problem (attached). It is my hope that it gets the point across at least. I’ve never seen such a flood from such a short rain storm in my entire life. When city officials were on the scene they told me that 3150 S and immediately below was the biggest problem area in the whole city that day. That is not comforting, especially since nothing has been done to mitigate the problem since and Salisbury continues to build more houses on even lower ground. As development continues to the North and East, I think it is critical that something be done to adequately address this issue. Also, I think it is fairly obvious that the three vacant lots at the end of 3150 South should NEVER be built on until adequate drainage is installed to handle the volume coming from all around. These three lots were a lake on the day in question. If they were built they would certainly have been flooded and it would have caused even worse flooding up 3150 S because the water wouldn’t have been able to go over into those lots like a waterfall.
I am originally from Southern California where it also rains infrequently, but in my city (Moorpark) there were many very large culverts and pipes. These drainage systems were 30ft wide and 10-25 ft deep in many cases and the pipes were 3-8ft in diameter with long curb drains everywhere. Some tunnels were large enough to drive large trucks through. During my 20 years in Moorpark California I’d seen some of those enormous ditches 35 ft wide and 12-15 ft deep fill nearly to the top numerous times. I’m new to St George, but I haven’t been able to find signs of adequate drainage in my area. All I see is a 2ft diameter pipe with tiny curb drains which are responsible for handling runoff from a vast area and which drains into a low spot with houses in it. It seems obvious that in a major event many houses will suffer major damage and a lake will form at Little Valley Rd and Horseman Park Dr.
What I’m hoping for is an explanation on how the city plans to mitigate this obvious problem in the near future. If it will help to gather hundreds of signatures on a petition or go to city council meetings, please let me know. I will be glad to do what I can to make sure a large part of our neighborhood isn’t destroyed by a flood unnecessarily.
Thank you for any help. |
City Officials response: |
Subject : RE: Major flooding issue on 3150 South
Date : Wed, 19 Aug 2015 09:17:25 -0700
I will forward to engineering and see what I can find out. The problem we have in St. George is not too much rain but too much rain all at once!
Sometimes I think engineers forget that very important point. There also is the possibility that when the rest of the surrounding area developes that some of this will be mitigated, however a plan should be in place until that happens.
I will get the right people on it and see what I can find out. I do agree that we need to make sure there are adequate drains and bigger is better.
Thank you.
Jimmie Hughes |
Nate,
I have forwarded your email to Cameron Cutler, public works director, and Wes Jenkins, engineer. They are aware of the issues and will be in contact soon.
Michele
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Me: |
Thank you for your response. I’m worried as I see more and more development continuing all around with nothing adequate being done. It seems like more of the same small diameter pipe going in all around. If this isn’t addressed soon, it will be too late. It seems like it would be much more cost-effective to do the right thing now while streets are going in instead of having to lose a bunch more homes and then tear up all the streets and do it right later. Certainly it’s cheaper for developers to put in these ridiculously inadequate systems, but it will be better for them, the residents and the city in the long run if they are FORCED to do the right thing.
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City Officials response: |
I agree. As an update, development staff had scheduled and is having a meeting with developer on this very issue today.
Thank you for your input. Always helpful.
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Nate,
The city mansger and public works director are aware of the situation and are looking into it as we speak.
After their investigation, I will report their findings along with the other council members.
Thanks for your patience.
Bette
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Me: |
Thank you. I would love to be able to inform everyone of what is being done to address this problem. Every time it rains a lot of us fear how bad it may get. During a decent storm our street (3150 S) requires a taller truck or SUV just to get through the river that our street is turns into.
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City Officials response: |
Just what I got that day. I know they met that day and are working with developer on some issues. I have not had any follow up with them. I will be seeing them at this Thursday's meeting. Feel free also to contact Cameron Cutler, public works director. He has info from your email and is aware and would have more first hand information. Cameron.cutler@sgcity.org I will let you know what I find out.
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Nate,
I received the from our public works director:
The public works leaders/engineers have had some conversations specifically regarding this area. We will be meeting today with the developer to discuss the overall drainage in the LV area (existing and future). We will have more to report once we can start that dialogue with them."
So there will be more information to talk about soon.
Thanks,
Jon
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The situation is being looked into. I haven't received the final word.
Bette
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Me: |
Jon,
This flood occurred on 7/18/15. It is now 8/25/15. I think we are concerned that while things are being looked into, developers are building away as cheaply and quickly as possible on all the remaining vacant lots which are even lower than our street. I have to doubt that they disclosed what will inevitably occur to all these new home buyers. I don’t think anyone can blame the builders for maximizing their profits as much as the government will allow and at the expense of homebuyers, but I think we depend on the city to prevent them from doing this to us. Please look into the situation faster so that more houses aren’t built where it ABSOLUTELLY WILL FLOOD BADLY without something new and substantial being done upstream of us.
Thanks for your help.
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City Officials response: |
Nate,
You're right in that it is the city's role to make sure that as development occurs, it complies with all applicable building codes. That has happened so far as I can tell in this case. But still, sometimes like in all fields, engineers differ in their opinions as to what will work under certain circumstances and what won't and there are questions as to just how "big" to go.
Storms here have, in the last few years, really changed in their complexion. We have more isolated, brief, but heavy rain storms than we did a few decades ago. We're therefore as a city and a county trying to determine what to do short and long term to address this and what the costs will be for citizens. One way or another, that's who pays for these things. So how much do we "oversize" storm drain systems in an area that receives so little rainfall - on average! When that "average" is toppled by one of these brief but powerful storms, it certainly wreaks havoc on whatever area it hits.
So, we will continue to work on this issue both in your neighborhood and generally. I hope there can be some short term solutions for the developments in your area.
Thanks,
Jon
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Me: |
Jon,
Thanks for the response. I have found that prevention is worth the cost. I
remember many times seeing what happens to houses in this area when it rains
hard. I remember watching houses floating down the river on the news
several times and many other times seeing them flood. Where I grew up in
California, this didn't happen. We had a huge drainage system that was dry
99.9% of the time. Seeing it fill several times I think we all agreed it
was worth it to have it there. Drainage systems are obviously expensive, but
so is losing your house, all your possessions and potentially your life.
After knowing full well what happens when it rains hard here, I think it odd
and disturbing that codes still allow for developers to put in absolutely
pathetic drainage systems which are overwhelmed by even a short and intense
or moderately long storm.
Maybe it is time to change the codes before we lose some more houses. I'm
no engineer, but I can tell you first hand these drains are so inadequate,
they may as well not even be there. In a light rain, they're unnecessary
and in a hard one they're useless.
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City Officials response: |
Nate,
It's too late for us to do the kind of canal system you describe, although we do have a pretty good situation with our dry washes and the river ways now. According to the engineers I've listened to, what we do need to consider is enlarging our storm drain catch basins and perhaps even the storm drain pipes themselves. However, even some of this will take more than fifty years to change throughout the city and require millions and millions of dollars. So while we probably both agree that would be best, I'm not sure yet that it's feasible - at least to the extent that we could say we would NEVER have a flooding event. There are "middle ground" options. That's what is being looked at currently.
The massive flooding you referred to that occurred back in 2005 is not the same thing we're talking about in your neighborhood. Those events are rare, and great improvements were done through the federal government that has put us in a much better situation for those kinds of events.
We also started a few years ago a county-wide flood control board. We have tax revenue funding that now allows us to work together on designing and building drainage improvements that will make us safer as a region, since we're all connected to each other:)
I hope this helps. We're actively engaged in making sure we do the best we can.
Jon
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